A
Life of Learning And Passion
An
interview with grown unschooler and professional musician André
Stern
By
Edith Chabot-Laflamme, J'OSE la vie !
Original version, in French, is here.
Translation:
Edith Chabot-Laflamme
Revision:
Catherine Forest and Jean-François Roldan
 |
| André Stern, his wife Pauline, and their son Antonin by
Isabelle Latournerie © 2012. |
André
Stern is a French musician who grew up without schooling. The
interview was conducted by telephone in French in July 2012. The
interviewer was in Quebec City, Canada and Stern was in Avignon,
France. Stern has written about his unschooled life in two books,
available in German, published by Editions Zabert Sandmann
(Und ich war nie in
der Schule, 2009 - 6thedition,
and Mein Vater, mein
Freund, 2011).
The
first one has been translated into French under the title ...Et
je ne suis jamais allé à l'école, published
by Actes Sud, 2011. He
and his family are featured in this unchoolig news report:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUey77MKDV8&f.
On
tour in Quebec, Canada:
After several lectures in Europe, Andre Stern will also be visiting
Quebec in May 2013; for more information, including states and
locations, as well as reservations, please visit:
http://andrestern.ca
***
Edith:
André Stern, you've never been to school, you hold several jobs, you
are married and the father of a little boy, how's it going for you
today?
Andre:
Very well! My childhood, my last forty-one years of childhood and
their events are doing very well. I am happy. Of course, this
includes the challenges, crises, obstacles, everything that is
related to a normal life; I'm not someone who does not know reality
of the world. But I am happy. I dare to say it: I'm a happy child.
 |
| André Stern as a child - courtesy Arno Stern Institut,
Paris. |
Edith:
You are on tour in Avignon. Are you with your family?
Andre:
Voila! We are in Avignon, the three of us together. We have been
coming here since 1999. Now, with Antonin, we have a different
organization, we follow a different rhythm. We manage to organize our
family life. Our little family of three, the extended family of six,
and the great theater family now have a new member called Antonin.
Edith:
How old is Antonin?
Andre:
Antonin is two and a half; he was born in December 2009.
Edith:
Do your occupations always allow you to travel with your family?
Andre:
Not always with family. There are sometimes many kilometers to cover.
We travel a lot, mainly in Europe but also in India, in Africa. We
always try to travel as a family, although this is not always
possible. For example, recently I had to take four planes and four
TGVs [high-speed trains] in four days, which is not something
you want a two-year-old child to go through.
As
for the trades that I practice, I add a nuance. I find it hard to
differentiate trades and hobbies, jobs, livelihoods and dreams; life
and learning; family and professional life. It's all very separate in
some people but, to me, that is not the case at all. This concept is
pretty vague. I practice these occupations that make me very happy; I
did not have restrict myself to a single profession, a single
direction. Many things are connected. Many occupations have emerged
along the way. There are all those occupations that I've always
wanted to perform, and some others I do not refer to as professions.
Currently, here in Avignon, I am a guitarist, a composer and a
performer. I am the co-director, with Giancarlo Ciarapica, of a
theater company. We are in Avignon for the theater and music
festival. Currently, my occupations are, in order: guitarist, luthier
[stringed
instrument maker],
author, and journalist.
I
am also director of the collective "Des hommes pour demain"
["Men
for tomorrow"],
initiated by Prof. Dr. Gerald Hüther, advanced neurobiology
researcher.
Beyond
that, I also work with computers, machines, and devices. And I am a
close colleague of my father, along with my sister: it is a very wide
work that can be described as a job. But right now, my main
occupation is being a father: observing, taking note, sharing the
childhood of my child.
 |
| André Stern as a child - courtesy Arno Stern Institut,
Paris. |
Edith:
Your parents offered you the choice - it is indeed a choice – not
to go to school. Your book describes a continuity of your parents'
lives in the life of this couple welcoming a child, a cohesion with
their respective life experiences. Did you feel it ? How have you
experienced that?
Andre:
I don't know if it was a choice for me; it was their choice. It is
wonderful that parents make choices - this was what drove me to
carry this testimony. For most parents, in France, there is no
choice: everyone starts with the principle that children must attend
school. (And here I must specify that I do not work against school; I
work hand-in-hand with people who do school.) What is heartening, is
that after reading my book a parent knows the spectrum of
possibilities. As for me, I think it is wonderful to be the son of
parents who have made choices, but maybe our son will want to go to
school. Choice and freedom are different things. One must not give
only a choice, one must also give freedom. For example, if we offer a
vegetarian the choice between pork and beef, there is a choice, but
there is no freedom; there is no freedom to choose what matches his
convictions.
Parents
make choices, this is where originates the odors, the colors of the
home, which is more important than its geography. For my parents, not
sending me to school was not an option but the only possible thing.
They were both brilliant students - this is not about personal
suffering; they had no score to settle with the school. They acted
according to their convictions. Mon
père, mon ami [My
Dad, my friend]
is the book
(published in German) I wrote with my father where we describe this
continuity. He is the son of his father; I am the son of mine. I am
moved and delighted that my son was born in this family, in a great
continuity, in the presence of my parents (that's how life has made
it). I am very grateful to have met with a woman such as Pauline, who
shares the same convictions. She doesn't adopt mine; it is not a
mutual adaptation, but an encounter. Seeing Antonin evolving, seeing
my son with my father is a continuity that is watermark in my life. I
live this belatedly, at 41, this is how events have occured in my
life.
 |
| André Stern as a child - courtesy Arno Stern Institut,
Paris. |
Edith:
When we read your book, we feel this complicity between your parents,
a common choice to provide the support, the environment, the tools,
to find interesting people who are interested in your passions. What
is their philosophy? Or is it rather a lifestyle?
Andre:
There is no philosophy, no method. Lifestyle would be closer, but
it's mostly and particularly an attitude.
My
parents were moved, they saw us grow up, walk, talk, without
educational intervention, without prompting, each one at his/her own
pace. They still are moved now that they're living a second wave with
Antonin and approach his childhood with a tenfold confidence. Their
main attitude is observation. In the observation position, one is
protected from making mistakes. We no longer have time to think.
Driven by curiosity, I observe what will be the next natural step in
the spontaneous disposition of the child, in his development, rather
than seeking how I could induce the next step.
Anecdote:
Antonin began to say: "2, 4, 6." Why? We don't know. When
he was hearing a number, he was replying: "2, 4, 6." We
are very curious to see what will be the next step. In the world of
others, which is not always like ours although we are part of it,
someone was a little shocked to see him, beaming, repeating ''2, 4,
6.'' He told us: "You can not let him make such a mistake; he
mispronounces, he doesn't count properly. It is your responsibility
to show him." He told Antonin: "We must say 1, 2, 3, 4, 5,
6...."
I
rely on modern neurobiology: The child turns to his primary reference
persons: his parents. The child expects from them an approval, a
green light. It falls within the child. We have a huge
responsibility: it is for us to give his spontaneous disposition the
acquiescence that he expects; we validate and then all other
influences have no hold on him.
So
Antonin looked at him and replied: "2, 4, 6." Later, he
began to say: "1, 3, 4, 6."
The
child has such a desire, such a need for approval, for reference,
that he is ready to give up his spontaneous disposition on behalf of
whatever receives a good reception from his referees (parents). We
can allow the child to develop in his own disposition, or impose our
own way: What a huge responsibility!
We
knew that, if we did not intervene, another step would come after 2,
4, 6. We want to ensure that his evolution is his personal evolution,
and not the result of our intervention. That's what has always driven
my parents.
Another
part of the attitude involves enthusiasm. Neurobiology tells us of
exciting things. I will summarize the history of neurobiology. It was
initially thought that we, humans, have different types of brains:
fast, slow, stupid, smart. This was convenient and we created
categories like under-talented, gifted, etc. Permanently. Some wise
guy even had the idea (it was thankfully not pursued!) to sterilize
people with an IQ level below a certain figure, to prevent them from
reproducing.
In
fact, brain develops depending on the use one makes of it. A first
discovery showed that the brain area that controls the movement of
the thumbs is three times more developed among fifteen-years-oldss of
today than of thirty years ago. Do you have an inkling about this? Of
course, that's because of texting. Stunning discovery. As a result,
scientists decided to treat the brain like a muscle, to make it
really big. Since the area that deals with the thumbs has tripled in
size, they invented a program to triple the volume of the brain.They
tried to have kindergarten children learn five languages, but to
their great disappointment, it didn't work.
The
key discovery they then made is something we all have always known :
The brain develops where it is used with enthusiasm!
Analysed
now by scientists, the process is quite clear: enthusiasm acts as a
fertilizer for the brain. Where we act with enthusiasm, the brain
develops in a spectacular and automatic way. Neurobiology has taken
years to prove what we all know by instinct and experience:
Enthusiasm is the key. In a state of enthusiasm, nothing is longer
inaccessible, learning happens "all by itself". Do you know
that small children experience a surge of enthusiasm about every
three minutes? In adults, such a surge of enthusiasm arrives only two
to three times a year! Children are born as full of enthusiasm. We
have no idea what happens when a child grows undisturbed in this
primordial and primary state of enthusiasm. My luck - this is
anything but a personal merit - is that I can bring new and decisive
answers about it.
Now
that we agree on the crucial aspect of this necessity, it is good to
know that enthusiasm takes time. When, for example, I read an author
or when I learned German for 6 hours in a row, nobody came after
fifty minutes (the average length of a course in a classroom setting)
to tell me that it was over. When we live our enthusiasm over time
and with confidence, we deepen our knowledge and understanding,
logically, every day. And I was able to experience that this has a
spectacular side effect, which is competence.
When
we are enthusiastic, our competence increases at high speed. And do
you know that competence also has a side effect? It is called
achievement, success!
We
are ready to trample others, to sacrifice our life in the name of
success. We have unlearned many things in the name of success, which
is nothing but the side effect of competence, which is, in turn, the
side effect of enthusiasm. That's it! What is sold as an end in
itself is just a side effect of the side effect of enthusiasm.
 |
| André Stern as a child - courtesy Arno Stern Institut,
Paris. |
Edith:
When you were very young, already, your dad gave you a guitar. In the
book, you say that for your parents, music is vital, but that they
don't play any instrument. You see in this gift a calling, an
implicit request?
Andre:
Not at all! This was part of what they offered me, like tools,
trucks, cars, all sorts of things. The guitar was very important in
flamenco, which my father liked. But it was not even a proposal, it
was a gift. When you offer a truck to your child, it does not mean
you want him to become a trucker.
Edith:
So, you have not experienced this omnipresent
consumer mentality that is in our culture, where the parent wants to
see that what he spent money on is actually being used by his child?
Andre:
When you live with your child, it is hard to go wrong on his
enthusiasms; my parents noticed that my head was stuck on the floor
when someone was playing the guitar on the floor below. If I offer
planes to Antonin whenever I see one we like, it is because he loves
airplanes, and motorcycles, and cars. And big trucks! That's it! I
know he is passionate about those. But if I offer him a sewing kit,
it's not what interests him now. By living with them, by observing,
we put ourselves from the many mistakes we could make. In fact, we
don't have to organize but to be carried away by each other's
enthusiasm. And most importantly, every time we try to organize
something (sorry for the noise, I'm on the street now, Avignon is
loud, I will soon take a quieter street... voila ! you're still
there, Edith? - Yes, yes, I am!), we risk imposing our ideas. We
therefore avoid great disappointments. The best thing to do is to let
go, to not have expectations. This is what protected my parents, not
to have expectations.
Anecdote:
Antonin loves trucks. I found him a 62 cm long truck, and gave it to
him. He said: "ohhhhh!" And he played non-stop for three
days with ... the package! We must have this open mind. (He laughs
heartily!)
Another
anecdote: When I was five or six years old - I wrote about it in the
book (note: p. 44) – my dad takes me to the planetarium, and we
shared this enthusiasm - him, about things in the sky, and me, about
the way things work in the planetarium. Neurobiology calls this
"shared attention" - we are together without necessary
looking in the same direction.
 |
| André Stern, by Pauline Stern |
Edith:
You speak about photo - and about many other subjects which
fascinated you - and make a distinction between learning, autonomous
exploration, from specialists' opinion. How important was it to you,
as a child, to explore by yourself, at your own pace?
Andre:
Because of this I have done things with vehemence, at my own pace, in
my own way. Sometimes I took complex detours, as a result, I have
never forgotten what I learned. It was not always a straight line,
but it was my
path. That said, I did not invent the world of topics like
string-instrument
making or
photography. But to have the incredible luck to be under the aegis of
the best guitar maker in the world was beyond my craziest dreams! No
dream is really inaccessible. After bumping into closed doors with
lots of his colleagues, Werni said: "I can show you everything,
but I cannot teach you anything." It was wonderful! I did not
invent this trade, I did not learn just to pass an exam. What I
learned has remained imprinted on me, I have not forgotten anything
because it was my path. Such as when I met the number pi. It was
complex, I wanted to calculate my truck's speed. I have believed in
the pi figure only when I had the strip of paper wrapped around the
wheel. It was easier to apply the formula instead of checking on my
own. My process was less direct, slower, more complicated, but it was
mine and so far it has served me well.
 |
| André Stern with Werner Schär - courtesy andrestern.com |
Edith:
In your book you write about visiting specialty stores, feeling
uncomfortable, people looking at you like you were an alien. Some
unschoolers say they are looked at that same way sometimes. However,
you also say that something in you was on
the right track and
you seemed pretty sure of yourself when you were really just leaving
the teenage years behind. Did your parents help you with that?
Andre:
Actually, it wasn't just when I was a teenager. I didn't
experience any teenage crisis. The crisis exists only in a certain
frame; without the frame, it does not exist.
That
look of which I speak, I saw it in the shops, yes, but not in normal
life. In normal life, children are more open-minded than we think.
For a child, who runs faster, jumps higher, is larger or smaller, are
the differences they really are when we do not impose comparison.
I've always been a happy member of this society. I lived a life-sized
socialization: When one is not confined with people of the same age
and lives with many different people, one learns to do things with
one another, to combine experiences, competencies, rather than to
compete. In the large social bath in which I was immersed, it was
much more important to do things with each other rather than against
each other. I've never felt different because I live in a world of
difference. There was always someone to show me something, or someone
to whom I could show some other thing. That eliminates the gap
between generations. It does not occur to an elderly person to
compare herself to a child; she would rather share enthusiasm. This
is precisely what is rewarding. What has led me to my friends is
neither our age nor where we live; it is our communities of interest!
If
I felt on rails about guitar, it was due to my reference persons, my
parents, who gave the green light to who I am, to my process. It is
an important role to be the reference person, to have the intention
to validate the spontaneous disposition of the child. With
neurobiology, we are protected from the discomfort of feeling
different; feeling different is desirable, there is no attempt to
unify things, to make them alike.
 |
| André Stern, luthier - Tamins, Suisse - courtesy andrestern.com |
Edith:
Your structured learning time began when you were twelve or thirteen
years old - guitar lessons, and later, English, algebra, copperware,
weaving, dance activities. Was that your request?
Andre:
That was always part of my life, with a stronger presence at that
age. It was not a structure that I requested; it was neither an
organization of my learning; it flowed naturally, stemmed from the
rest. There is no freedom without structure. For example, a personal
rule may be to play the guitar six hours a day; a family structure
may be to wash your hands before eating, or to eat together; a social
structure is to drive on the right side of the street. We need
structure. And if the algebra class was on Wednesday at 2pm, it was
useless to go there on Sunday at 10am. It is a structure that a child
understands very well and which reassures him and, precisely, gives
him a sense of freedom.
Edith:
Your mom accompanied you to Egyptology lessons. For photography and
copperware, she discreetly looked for a workshop, an open-minded
professional who welcomed you without academic method. This
discretion on the part of both of your parents seems to have been an
important underlying element in this life without school.
Andre:
Discretion is important, yes, like when you have an uncle who is
passionate about ties and you conspire all together to surprise him:
everyone brings him a tie. It’s
the same thing for the beer bottle caps collector.
We remain attentive, if we see something interesting, we offer it to
him. Freed from expectations, which are deleterious, we can put
ourselves in our child's position.
Edith:
I come back to music for a moment. People often wonder how to nurture
their child's musical talent. They wonder if unschooling provides
enough discipline and rigor to prepare for a professional career in
music. What do you think about this?
Andre:
I never start from me but always from the child. If parents listen to
music, or if they play music, the child is steeped in music, but that
does not mean he will play music. I would never try to win the child
to one of my preferences. If it starts with him, then it's not
necessary to try to nurture the child's interest; it just happens, by
enthusiasm.
As
for discipline, this question makes me laugh. Learning takes place
because of the interest we have for things; self-discipline arises
from the pleasure one has from doing these things. We believe,
wrongly, that discipline is a framework imposed from the outside,
that it requires a system that forces the child to do something, to
practice. However, the natural discipline comes from the child, from
within. It grows out of pleasure and curiosity.
For
example, when I practiced the guitar six hours in a row, I was the
one who imposed my discipline, my pace, onto my family.
Another
example: Antonin is listening to two minutes of Mozart's The Magic
Flute. At one point, we see him reacting to the sound of the
little bells. He enjoys it and after, he moves a little, he has less
desire to be there; then, all of a sudden, he hears the sound of the
bells again. So he knows that this sound he appreciates will come
back and he is ready to sit still and to wait to hear it again.
It
is at this very moment that he is learning self-discipline: "If
I sit for two minutes longer, I will have the pleasure of hearing the
bells once again," which leads him to want to stay four more
minutes, then eight minutes, it's exponential. At his pace, at his
own time, he chooses to listen for two more minutes. Now, he listens
and watches The Magic Flute every day, Every day! This is an
extreme discipline. At one-and-a-half years old, listening and
watching The Magic Flute every day is a very high level of
discipline – or just natural enthusiasm fully experienced.
Edith:
I don't know how it is in France, but here in Quebec, in Canada, in
America, (I want to stress that here, we don't know much about
unschooling), people have lived within this framework which have been
imposed on them, and often they don't come to break free from it and
free their children from it.
Andre:
One simply has to start from
the child, everything becomes simple and enthusiasm becomes
"contagious"!
Edith:
Your grandfather seemed to be very present, as well as your uncles,
some friends of your parents, and also their children. Was this
circle a part of the environment your parents offered you? Did they
already have their support?
Andre:
Not necessarily, there were many doubts on behalf of certain members
of the family. Ineradicable convictions are not necessarily shared.
But from the moment each person sees that, carried by enthusiasm,
there is no need to worry about our children, then, things change.
 |
| Arno Stern and André Stern in India - courtesy Arno Stern Institut, Paris. |
Edith:
Did you ever compare your life with those of other friends or young
people of your age?
Andre:
What I was seeing of school life was not very tempting. The
children never had time to play, they had homework after school ...
and as soon as they learned that I was not going to school, they all
told me, ''How lucky you are!"
Edith:
Did any of your friends test you?
Andre:
It has never happened. I repeat it: children are far more open than
we think. What matters to a child is to play. And they take note of
differences. They did not quantify, nor qualify them.
Edith:
Your book is also a call to freedom, and to confidence. You are
addressing an adult audience, especially parents, perhaps also
teenagers. Do you think parents are lacking confidence in their
children?
Andre:This
is what characterizes most parents. They believe that if they do not
educate their children, they will become illiterate and asocial
savages. Yet children are extremely competent. Children are born with
the best, the most suitable, and most amazing of learning devices
ever invented: play. From then on, there is only room for confidence.
Ah! If only you knew how simple things are!
I
am talking about extreme competence of the child, the learning
capacity of the child, at five years old as well as at eighty-five
years old, he has the same capacity of learning. The only thing that
defines this enthusiasm is that it leads to competence and then to
success. There is nothing more to worry about. I sometimes talk to
people who have no qualifications, no diploma, and I tell them that
qualifications are not needed but competence is, and that this is
the result of enthusiasm. Enthusiasm is free, available to everyone.
I
am a practical illustration of the weight of confidence. We must tell
this story, so that parents see how much we have to trust children.
Edith:
Did your parents or yourself feel any social pressure ?
Andre:
Never! Absolutely not. When we feel confident, we naturally move
away from people who have different convictions and/or different
attitudes, we can choose our friends, like they choose us, by
affinity.
Edith:
Do you have your own philosophy of life? If so, what is it?
Andre:
No. Neurobiology is not a philosophy. It is a support, an
indispensable asset. It is not a philosophy, it is an attitude, it is
the same as my parents. It is to be in common life, in curiosity,
together. Observing. Curious for the next step, not desiring to
introduce the next step.
 |
| André Stern, by Pauline Stern |
These
words, which summarize very well the attitude of Andre Stern,
conclude the interview.
Andre,
thank you very much for granting me this interview while you are in
the middle of the Avignon Festival. Thank you for your generosity!
Edith
Chabot-Laflamme
J'OSE
la vie !
]